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Author Topic: Why develop CE?  (Read 18898 times)
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Szandor
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« on: September 20, 2007, 12:45:40 pm »

I have been thinking about why the activity for working on CE is so high compared to working on EE. My theory is that people are vain and want to see the results of their labour reach the public quickly. Working on EE would take more time and credit would not be given outside of this community until something is actually released. Now I've even read articles proposing a complete rewrite of the CE code, something that doesn't really make sense when we already have EE to work on.

Face it guys, CE is not that good.

I would say that CE should be maintained, not developed. New features for CE? Who cares! I want a new and better program, not an old one with a few extras glued onto it.

Seriously, think about why you actively develop CE and not EE. You do a great job, but I think the effort is misdirected. If this energy had gone into EE instead we would have gotten so much closer to actually having a better program.

Keep up the good work, but work on the better program instead.
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Pvt_Ryan
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2007, 01:25:50 pm »

I have been thinking about why the activity for working on CE is so high compared to working on EE. My theory is that people are vain and want to see the results of their labour reach the public quickly. Working on EE would take more time and credit would not be given outside of this community until something is actually released. Now I've even read articles proposing a complete rewrite of the CE code, something that doesn't really make sense when we already have EE to work on.

Face it guys, CE is not that good.

I would say that CE should be maintained, not developed. New features for CE? Who cares! I want a new and better program, not an old one with a few extras glued onto it.

As to the vainity its nothing to do with that (speaking for myself anyhow) at the end of the day CE works and works quite well its got a decent userbase, but conversly it has alot of areas in which it can improve. We are trying to fix bugs and alot of the "new features" are mainly just to make it more usable or to improve an already existing feature.

Another reason I am doing CE and not EE is because my coding skills arent that great, I mostly hack alreading existing code. I wouldn't even know where to begin to develop a UI in C/C++ for example.

The rewrite article (if there are the ones i am thinking about) was mainly an idea to move CE to using wxwidgets and to try and get the code platform independant. My reasoning was that if we could get that much done then maybe it would provide a starting point for EE, or we could use CE as a base and totally rewrite the code 1 section at a time until it evolves into a better editor.

Seriously, think about why you actively develop CE and not EE. You do a great job, but I think the effort is misdirected. If this energy had gone into EE instead we would have gotten so much closer to actually having a better program.

Keep up the good work, but work on the better program instead.

We havent heard from the lead devs in EE for months, they could be dead/missing/in suspended animation (delete as appropiate) and EE has stagnated at the design level (infact technically even before that point).

Not to sound agressive or anything but what have you done to get EE off the ground?
(yes i know you are doing the SDD but tbph imho that is useless untill we have a program to use it in (I am not being ungrateful/condesending as I do like the SDD and it is an excellent idea), but its like having the chickens without having a chicken coup to keep them in.)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 01:30:19 pm by Pvt_Ryan » Logged
Pvt_Ryan
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2007, 02:14:01 pm »

Thinking about it some more and if you look at the "Calling all coders thread" notice how many people offered to help and also notice how many people are helping (or better yet click on their name and see when they were last active on the forum).

Also look at my numerous requests for people to do small things for CE (updating documentation for eg) and look and how many people didnt bother to offer. At the end of the day something like while it may not look important is very important from a user perspective, and while even I (who hates writing HTML/JS and is very slow coding it) could do it noone offered and tbph it would take an amauter about 2days to learn what they needed to know to do a professional looking job on it, it would take an expert/web dev about 30min to revamp and make easier to update.

My point is that alot of people will offer but if you are lucky ~2% will actually help, Its not a critisim of people, just human nature.
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Matthew1344
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2007, 03:19:00 pm »

Quote
CE is not that good.

First, I believe this is just wrong.  There are some other editors emerging that some might argue are better, but even now--years after the last release--CE is still pretty good, and I use it professionally every day.  Anyway...

I haven't posted in months, though I check the forum every day in hopes that there will eventually be some significant work done on either CE or EE.  As things are now, here's my perception of where things are.

CE: There seems to be some minor development ongoing.  I read reports of bugs being removed and small features being added.  However, where can I download the latest build of the program?  The "Downloads" page only has 3.70... which is what I've had for years.  I'm not saying it isn't around somewhere, but I feel like I would have to scour the forums to find a link to a Windows build, and even then I don't know if it's an "official" version (if there is such a thing) or just something where somebody has hacked in their own pet changes.

EE: The website looks awesome!.... and that's about it.  I know there's some source out there, but from posts I've read, I get the impression that it is expected to be scrapped eventually and replaced with... well... something else.

It would appear that the release of CE source was the worst possible thing that could have happened to EE.  It split the efforts and excitement in half.  I suppose some people saw an opportunity to get a huge head-start (use CE as the base for EE), while others felt that it shouldn't affect EE at all.  Yet, the majority of the discussion that I have seen has been regarding minor tweaks and hacks to CE--some of which have caused huge program file size increases and slowed start-up times.

I'm not throwing stones, just trying to give an honest, outsider's perspective.  Like I said, I'm still checking the website daily.  I do hope that big things will eventually happen here.
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Pvt_Ryan
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2007, 03:29:59 pm »

CE: There seems to be some minor development ongoing.  I read reports of bugs being removed and small features being added.  However, where can I download the latest build of the program?  The "Downloads" page only has 3.70... which is what I've had for years.  I'm not saying it isn't around somewhere, but I feel like I would have to scour the forums to find a link to a Windows build, and even then I don't know if it's an "official" version (if there is such a thing) or just something where somebody has hacked in their own pet changes.

http://forum.emeraldeditor.com/index.php?topic=361.0
(as a side that version has only been up 2 days the last version had more than 1000 downloads)

EDIT: To be fair the above link is mentioned on the home page.

EDIT2: (sorry i am just not on the ball today) I should say that those binaries are the official 3.72 pre-release versions, until a few of the more serious bugs in CE are fixed we won't release 3.72, we (well certainly I) don't feel that with the current issues still present it would be fair or responsible to release 3.72, if anything we would be doing CE an injustice by getting ahead of ourselves. I think that if we can solve the slow samba share problem and the slow load times then we will be in a fair position for a release but until then the release date is "as and when it is ready".

Yet, the majority of the discussion that I have seen has been regarding minor tweaks and hacks to CE--some of which have caused huge program file size increases and slowed start-up times.

Yes the file size has increased, mostly due to the rewriting of things to get it to compile under VS 2k5, but also because we have added more code to provide mor functionality, see the above mentioned thread for a detailed list of what we have done.

Slow startup times were a side effect of changing from a binary cfg file to an ini file that users could modify, this is caused as i believe that Phil just didnt think that the I/O would be as high is it turned out to be. However (as i have stated in other threads) I am working on a fix for this atm.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 03:42:55 pm by Pvt_Ryan » Logged
Szandor
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2007, 08:26:35 pm »

Another reason I am doing CE and not EE is because my coding skills arent that great, I mostly hack alreading existing code. I wouldn't even know where to begin to develop a UI in C/C++ for example.
I believe that EE could be a great opportunity for you to improve your skills. Still, I do see your point.

We havent heard from the lead devs in EE for months, they could be dead/missing/in suspended animation (delete as appropiate) and EE has stagnated at the design level (infact technically even before that point).
Hmm, suspended animation would be cool... Seriously though, this is an important issue and I hope things get better or EE might just be a dream of what CE could be in many years from now.

Not to sound agressive or anything but what have you done to get EE off the ground?
Being agressive is at least a reaction - I had hoped for more people than two to be agressive towards me. (Not that I dislike your professional attitude in the matter though, the replies are all good and valid and I like that.) There are at least 12 people who have read this without replying - speak up damn it! True democracy can only be had in the conflict of debate, otherwise it is just a dictatorship of the masses...

I cannot code, unfortunately, and even though I have some ideas on the internal design (which I cannot claim are valid or useable, since I cannot code) I have been afraid to undermine the authority of those in charge of those tasks. Maybe my concern for EE comes from the fact that I can't really do much yet - I'm a designer at heart and even though I have ideas, I need people to tell me what is actually achievable.

On the other hand, maybe EE isn't what people want. Maybe people just want a better CE.

Quote
CE is not that good.

First, I believe this is just wrong.  There are some other editors emerging that some might argue are better, but even now--years after the last release--CE is still pretty good, and I use it professionally every day.
I used to do that as well, but I've always had to run Notepad beside it, because of the lack of good UTF-8 support. It works to a certain limit, then it just falls apart. Now I'm switching from CE because of that very reason.
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Matthew1344
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2007, 10:32:46 pm »

Good... I'm glad to hear there's some downloading going on.  I think there would be even more if the file was dropped on the "Downloads" page and just referenced by the home page.  (Force everyone go to the same place--Downloads--if they want to... well... download.)

Again, I'm not at all trying to knock the work that many of you have so generously contributed.  I wish I could do as much myself.
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pn8830
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2007, 10:58:55 pm »

My personal opinion is that CE is pretty much a concrete product that can be improved and developed and EE pretty much does not exist. I'm sorry if it's to straight forward, I do not want to hurt anyones feelings, but there is no active development on EE and the reason is that there is nobody with programming or software design skill in this community who has a desire to do it. The only thing which is great in EE to my mind is that in current state it compiles with MSYS (GCC). And this is a big disadvantage of CE is that it does not compile with GCC and I need VS and it should be something other then Express edition to even try to do something.  But still CE is a good product and it does a great deal for me. I would really like to see it evolving.

PN
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Pvt_Ryan
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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2007, 12:14:33 am »

@Szandor
I have to agree the stagnation is annoying me too. In saying that you said you are a designer, want to design EE? I'd be more than happy to try and code something. My main issue was i couldnt get wxwidgets to compile (probably user error).

@Matthew1344
No offence taken, the reason that the builds aren't in the download section is because Arantor is the admin and only he can change that section but both phil and I are mods so can update that thread as and when we want. To place them in the dl section Arantor would have to do it and time between build releases varies for several hours to a few weeks. So in this instance the thread is more efficient.

@pn8830
Nothing wrong with telling it like it is.
As to the compiler issue I have to agree that it is annoying this was one of the reasons i wanted to do a CE port as we could remove the MS VS 2k5 dependency (although I like VS2k5 as its debugging and UI is brill) I would still prefer for the code to be able to be compiled under a free generally available compiler. Tbh its lucky that I got a free copy of VS 2k5 when i was at uni or i never would have bothered with coding CE (which i have to admit has taught me quite abit)
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Matthew1344
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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2007, 04:15:04 pm »

... the reason that the builds aren't in the download section is because Arantor is the admin and only he can change that section ... the thread is more efficient.

I understand the convenience... I just can't help think that people might go to the DL page, find nothing there, and assume that it's completely vaporware.  What if you guys just post in the same thread all the time, and Aranator puts a link to that thread on the DL page?
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Pvt_Ryan
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2007, 06:38:31 pm »

we do post in the same thread each time. Wink

as to the link send Arantor a PM or email and request this. I havent seen him online in about a week though so dont hold your breath for a quick responce.
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TonyG
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« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2007, 07:28:42 am »

You guys don't know me but I think you'd be interested in this blog article I just wrote on the current situation with Crimson and Emerald.   Sorry for munging to avoid spammer/harvesters:

removethisNebula-RND. com/blog/tech/2007/09/context-crimson01.html
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Pvt_Ryan
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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2007, 08:46:32 am »

Interesting read.

I would point out that although CE is c++ it depends heavily on MFC and the code is very windows specifc so any porting would require a rewrite.
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Chromatic Aberration
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« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2007, 10:19:36 pm »

I would point out that although CE is c++ it depends heavily on MFC and the code is very windows specifc so any porting would require a rewrite.

Well, maybe you could do like Google Earth and Picasa on Linux... use a Win32 API (Wine) and you don't need a complete rewrite.
CE already runs fine on Linux under Wine. On a fairly recent rig, it is even quite fast...

My 5 cent!

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Chromatic Aberration
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pn8830
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2007, 04:31:49 pm »

CE already runs fine on Linux under Wine. On a fairly recent rig, it is even quite fast...

My 5 cent!

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Chromatic Aberration

Yes I did that too. But I did not like how it looked. I think Wine is a band-aid in this case.
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